Best,
Nathan

Maybe I am the Unicorn? That would certainly expain why I sometimes feel I come from some strange place .

The idea that “compassionate action” starts with ourselves and that involves seeing resonates with me. A lot of compassion is needed once I start noticing all that reactivity and conditioning.

To me it seems that, as human beings, we have needs. Taking care of our needs is essential in order to survive. This not only applies for our needs for food and water but also for other needs. Our feelings help us to identify our needs. If we never felt hungry, perhaps we would die because of neglecting our need for food. Hold your breath for one minute and notice what makes you want to breath fresh air? It’s the feelings in your body. At this human being level, we have needs, whether we like it or not. I agree we are not our feelings, we are not our needs, but we are responsible for dealing with this stuff whether we are a solid thing or a process thing or something else.

I agree we sometimes experience that not meeting another persons need, makes the relationship less personal. I know I sometimes do the same. But to me it seems it has nothing to do with the other person, it has nothing to do with the relationship but it has to do with the beliefs and assumptions about relationships.

I feel happy and surprised with our conversation. When I posted my first comment I never thought about what could happen. Thanks a lot for sharing. Cheers, Peter.

Thank you for trying to answer the question that was not clearly formulated. I appreciate what you wrote about both parties making an effort to contribute to the other person’s needs. I would like to explore the following questions (once the need is identified):

a) How do I distingush the genuine need from an illusion?
b) How can I have my need met without “going outside”?

You wrote that people can have different needs at the moment and that might be the reason for one of them not being able/willing to contribute to the other person’s needs. Do we necessarily need to have matching needs? If a child walks up to the parent when the parent is busy with something and asks for some water, the parent might have a totally different need and might not be able to relate to the need of the child but he/she would go get a glass of water. I realise this is not a very good example in many ways (small children are dependable on the parents and need their help; we are biologically programmed to put the children’s needs over our own, etc).

Isn’t believing and acting on the idea that we should (and only can) have our needs met an illusion that will eventually lead to disappointment as we put oursleves into dependency upon something that cannot last?

I would like to have a look at those questions from the position of a self as a process rather than something solid, something that identifies with a certain aspect of one’s life – parent, creative person, employer – as well as an emotional or mental state. When I no longer identify with a certain state, emotion, image of myself, etc, those needs of mine do not feel as real or urgent, do they? Similarly, the other person’s response or unwillingness to respond to those needs can be perceived as less personal which can totally change the dynamics of the relationship.

If, within a relationship, someone won’t or can’t contribute to the particular need of the other person, it is perhaps because both persons (friends/partners) have different needs at that moment. It can be a real challenge to find strategies together that meet both needs. It requires some process-talk to figure it all out together. But of course, if one person again and again and again can’t or won’t relate to the other person’s need, it might cause the relationship to end.

Does this answer your question?

I really appreciate some of the points of NVC as bringing awareness about one’s feelings and being able to frame them. So often we hide behind the fluff of the language (“I feel that …” meaning “I think…” instead of saying how we really feel) and get disconnected from our feelings and consequently from the body that communicates to us all the time.

While I agree with you that NVC fosters awareness, I also think that to successfully apply NVC we already need to have a certain level of awareness. It’s not an easy model to apply and requires that one stays with the discomfort of first acknowledging one’s feelings, then expressing them, then voicing a request… We make ourselves vulnerable and it’s easy to get sidetracked by the partner’s response already in the very beginning unless we have a level of awareness that would allow us to stay with the discomfort of the unknown and face whatever reaction might come at the same time as we also have to see the person in front of us.

I find inquiring (in a gentle and exploratory way) about one’s motives to be a very useful exercise in all areas of one’s life. Sometimes I focus on the speech for at least part of the day and really get surprised by the discoveries.

Making a request and being able to deal with a “no” seems like a reasonable thing yet in my experience “finding a different way to have our needs met” often results in a break up of the first relationship. Can you relate to that?

I think that becoming aware of one’s feelings and needs is a lot as the first step. Too often though we tend to turn to others for meeting our needs as the second step. This is the part that I question and am looking into.

I’d like to read more on applying NVC in writing and see that my nederlands-engels dictionary might come in handy.

Regarding your question (should we try to become aware of the motives behind our requests before turning to others) I think awareness will come automatically (but gradually) when applying NVC. The process of NVC raises consciousness.

Cheers!
Jon

/Jon

Cheers
Jon

The point that NVC is about meeting the needs of others first totally escaped me from what I read and heard about it so far.
I would then not see much sense in trying to figure out what it is I feel (the first step in the model) and communicating my needs and a request (also steps in the model) if it was about me meeting the need of another person. Would I not ask them about it for starters (provided I need to talk to them about their needs to begin with).

Respectfully,

Irina

It seems to me that your examples are at the wrong level – you are exploring strategies for meeting needs without getting to what the needs are. The result of that style of “NVC” is rather lacklustre I agree, but it isn’t really following the model.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing….

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Cheers!
Jon

Cool journey, good on ya!
I like it whenever I find an answer that’s like “Could be” or “Hm yes interesting, I wonder…” or “Well that gives rise to…”. When I think there’s one answer I’m pretty much always spinning away in some fantasy or acting out of fear or anger. One answer, THE answer, there are questions where that’s true but the really interesting ones generally have a broader spectrum of relevant answers. That’s one of the things that make them interesting to me

Cheers!
Jon

Just pick up the goddamn pants! I keep tripping over them!
Good question there I think. “Is this truly a better communication?”. What is better communication? What do I accomplish with it? How does it get me further on my path in life? DOES it get me any further, or does it help me stay in the same place, or what? An interesting discussion that never gets a complete answer.
I agree with the ethics issue you raise. Ethics/morality should always be a part of any discussion of relationships and tools to handle relationships. I’m don’t think that it’s even possible to avoid those issues. They’re a part of our basic setup as human beings. We can perhaps try to hide from them but they find us in the end . Better to deal with them from the start.
I get wary of shows/groups/whatever that are called Just for xxx, xxx only or no yyy. Setting a firm boundary between us and them, not the kind of whatever I can use to get me further on my path.

Cheers!
Jon

This is exactly my point and you seemed to have nailed it in just a few words.

I believe with all the new tools we get into our hands (for example the findings of neuroscience that give rise to NLP techniques), we have to consider the issue of ethics. Some of those techniques are now used by sales people who as we know not necessarily have the person’s best interests in mind.

Whatever the tool, we can always use it for self-growth and exploring my motives seems to be a good place to start, especially when I am on the path of asking another person to change their behaviour.

Warmly,

Irina

We should spend some time understanding our motivations before learning better ways to carry them out.

Well said!

A very interesting post that I couldn’t have written more eloquently than you. Very thought provoking.

Thanks for your posts – the poem is also great.

Dosho

Thank you for stopping by and the comment! This was a rather ambitious project all thins considering but I don’t make it into a big deal, rather view this as a way to make notes on what happens. I don’t want to put additional pressure on myself or others, we will have enough of that with all the commitments we have made Feel free to comment and/or share your experiences if you find that some post resonates with you. Good luck!

Gassho,

Irina

I am a fellow Trealeefer and I started Ango as well. I am not sure if I’m going to set up an online space to note my experiences, but I am happy to read yours and exchange emails on the subject, if you wish.

Gassho,
Agata

Sometimes when I catch myself in a state of not-mindfulness, the first thing I do is name what I see (silently): Tree. My foot. The sidewalk. Sky. It helps shake me loose from my dizzy thoughts, far away from HERE.

But then, another step: Let go of name and form.

The tree is no tree. The foot, no foot.

Thanks for sharing this and for clarifying the terms, which can be confusing sometimes.

I agree that the term “mindfulness” has become somewhat washed out. My working definition of mindfulness is “being aware of something when it is actually happening”. There is nothing blissful or mystical about it. This is the quality of the mind present when I am about to cross a busy street (provided I am not suicidal at the moment ) and get back out of my head and into my direct experience of my body and the environment. Maybe because of the term being so washed out recently I tend to translate the quality of non-separation you describe in the example with the child and the stick as single-mindedness, rather than mindfulness. Mindfulness is then becomes sort of a step towards one-mindedness, or non-separation, when the doer and the action are one.

You wrote: “Your sympathy for me might feel great, but will it help?” I think symathy carries a seed of arrogance with it: I am here and you are there, poor you. The qualities I am trying to cultivate are not so much that of sympathy but of empathy and compassion. Can they be helpful to the other person? Talking from my own experience, I really find it helpful when a friend that sees me in emotional pain can hold me and my experience in that space of openness, not trying to fix my problem or comfort me, no matter how uncomfortable it can be for THEM. I don’t know if others feel “great” in those situations but I certainly recognise this discomfort when the person might be in pain for whatever reason. I have to remind myself that they have a right to their feelings and I don’t have to make it about MY experience (I THINK I cannot stand watching someone close to me being sad so I have to fix the problem when in fact I CAN stand it). I believe being empathetic and compassionate takes a lot of courage.

“I am not saying it will be easy, just saying it is so. And it’s ok! It’s all OK!!”

I think I understand what you are trying to say: whatever happens is neither good, nor bad, it is our thinking that makes it so? When you write “ok” I take it as a synonym for “good”. If I say that something is OK I imply that it is better than not-ok which is not the same as “just as it is”, neither Ok, nor not-OK. Does it make sense?

Thanks again! Gassho,

Irina

Many thanks for pointing towards Daniel’s online book, and of course to Daniel himself for having the generosity to make it freely available.

With metta

I have been “sitting with what is” for a while and recognise the Zen way. Yet I kinda question it I guess. Something tells me many of those teachers did get SOME instructions in their time.

“In Zen we say: “To give too many instructions is like gouging a wound in good flesh’ ”

Made me think of this

Thanks for stopping by and leaving a comment. I too believe that if people spent some time in meditation there would be less war and (self)distructive behavour and hope more people will discover the benefits of meditation,whatever the type may be. In the West we are pretty fortunate to be able to pick and choose whatever suits us most. How did you come to TM?

The best of luck!

Meta,

Irina

Thanks for stopping by and leaving the comment! I will definately check the site as I am curious in TM as a creativity enhancer .

I cannot compare TM to other types of meditation as I only practiced Vipassana (Insight or Mindfullness) Meditation and zazen (Zen meditation) but with those two we learn to stay with whatever arises, even “uncomfortable” feelings like anxiety and see feelings for what they are. This might not seem like a short term anxiety reduction strategy (but it is when one just looks at the emotion or feeling and not the thoughts that we connect to it) but it is very helpful in everyday life.

If you read this answer, do you mind sharing how YOU came to TM? Was it the first type you tried or have you done anything else before and then chose TM for some particular reason?

Meta,

Irina

Meta,

Irina

Thanks for your comment and the advice. I will check the site. Lots of positive words on TM!

Meta,

Irina